Trump signed an Executive Order saying that if you burn the American flag, you're probably committing a host of other crimes, which we will charge you with. Do you support this effort, or should people be free to burn the flag?
Welcome to politics by faith. Thanks for being here. I want to talk about this Trump executive order about banning the burning of the American flag. Now he can't really do that. So what he said in the executive order, twofold. First, if you burn the American flag, you're probably committing a bunch of other crimes as well.
And we're going to go after you for those crimes. We can't go after you for the burning of the flag. We'll get to why not in a second, but you're doing other stuff that will get you for it. Also, if you're a foreigner, you're on a visa or green card or something like that, and you burn the American flag, you're gone. So that one we can all get behind. I don't think we need to talk about that.
But what about the first thing for citizens? Should citizens, should American citizens be allowed to burn the American flag? Now, when I first heard this yesterday, that Trump signed this executive order, my first thought was, I haven't thought about this in a while, but I went back to my old argument, my old libertarian argument, which is I would never burn the flag, but it's a free country and people should be allowed and free to do whatever they want to do, even if that means burning it. And then I thought for a second, well, hold on. Every one of my libertarian arguments that I've ever made has proven to be wrong. I made the libertarian argument 15 years ago about legalizing marijuana.
I was wrong. I made the libertarian argument about gay marriage. I was totally wrong. I was like, oh, it's a contract between two people, blah, blah. I made the libertarian argument about free trade, creative destruction, and capital account surplus, and when jobs go overseas, that frees up money for people here, cheaper products, blah, blah, blah. I was wrong about all those things.
And they were all libertarian. Every libertarian thing I ever thought was wrong. And a lot of this libertarian thing, obviously, has creeped into conservatism over the years. And so is this one on burning the flag. And the libertarian argument is that people should be allowed to burn the flag because it's a free country and it's freedom of speech. And that was my instinct when I first heard the story.
But then I thought, well, hold on, let's go back here. Where did this belief come from? What's really going on here? When did this become freedom of speech? So it goes back to 1984. There was a communist.
He was a member of the Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade. And he stole and burned an American flag outside of the 1984 Republican convention in Dallas. And he was fined $2 ,000 and also given one year jail sentence because he broke Texas law. And then it worked its way up to the Supreme Court. Now, this is important. First point, 48 states had a law that said you can't burn the American flag.
So today we look at this like, oh, you should definitely be allowed to burn the American flag. Come on, it's freedom. 48 states said you couldn't. So went to the Supreme Court and Supreme Court said five to four that those laws are unconstitutional, which is my second point. Only five to four. It was a squeaker.
This was not a unanimous slam dunk decision the way it's perceived today. Like, oh, yeah, definitely freedom of speech. That's five to four. And it was the four liberal justices with only Scalia joining them. That was the five to four breakdown. So first point, 48 states said you can't do this.
You can't burn the flag. Second point, it was only a five to four decision. Third point, it was only a decision decision in 1989, like just the other day. Wasn't that long ago? It's not like, well, George Washington said you should be allowed to burn the flag when Thomas Jefferson burned the flag.
Like, no, we didn't.
This is a new thing. It's a new belief. Now, after that first Supreme Court decision, the Congress was so outraged that they passed a federal bill saying it's a federal crime if you burn the American flag. It passed like 380 to 60 and in the Senate was 91 to 9. And then that went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court ruled 5 -0. I fight for that.
That's unconstitutional freedom of speech. So those three points make sense. First, this like highly esteemed held position that it's freedom of speech comes from a decision not that long ago, 1989, barely five to four and against what was the vast majority opinion. And I believe the right opinion at that time that, no, you cannot burn this thing. So I went back and we went through all this on the Sirius XM radio show. I'm not going to go through all again, but I went back through the dissenting arguments that the four justices made both those times.
And the arguments basically are this flag is different and it's symbolic of something deeply meaningful and the sacred, and it's different than other things. But the argument that really struck out to me, and therefore it's okay for a people to get together and say, you can't do a thing. And freedom of speech is freedom of speech. It's not, this is an action. Burning a flag is an action. You can say whatever you want.
You can say, I hate the government. Okay. But when you burn the flag, that's different than saying the words, I hate the government. That was one of the other arguments. I think the argument that stands out to me the most though, which is the most obvious, is one of the justices said, you can't spray paint whatever you want on the Lincoln Memorial and say, freedom of speech, I can do whatever I want. Speech isn't just speech, it's also spray paint.
No, you can't spray paint the Lincoln Memorial. And no one would question that. No one would be like, well, I don't know. I think he has the right to do it. It is America. But we're like, go ahead, burn the flag.
No. I also brought up another Supreme Court case back in 1907 just to show how far we've fallen. In this case, this guy in Nebraska lovingly put the American flag on the label of a beer bottle, a beer that he was selling. But there was a law in Nebraska that says you cannot use the American flag in advertising because it desecrates the flag. And it went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said eight to one, yeah, that law's good, that's fine.
And that just advertising in a loving way, here's a patriotic beer, American flag, you can't even do that because that desecrates the flag. So we went from, you can't use the flag in an advertisement because it desecrates it, all the way down to, yeah, you can burn it, you can burn the flag, no problem, no big deal, that's your right. Now my compromise on this issue, for those who say you should be able to burn the flag, is let's just punish people who burn the American flag as much as we punish people who desecrate the pride flag. Just two months ago, New York Times, four arrested after pride flags are slashed at Atlanta LGBTQ landmark. They were charged with hate crimes. They were charged with obstruction, criminal damage to property, conspiracy, and prowling.
Don't even know what that is. They just ripped down some flags. from this part of town in Atlanta. And they got charged with hate crimes. They're gonna get charged with hate crimes. They're 16, 17, 18 years old, hate crimes.
But this is what Trump's gonna do to people who burn the American flag. So ripping down the pride flag is not in and of itself illegal, but they'll get you on damage to property, conspiracy, prowling, whatever that is. That's what Trump's gonna do with people who do it with the American flag. That's what this executive order is all about. They also charged the 16 -year -old's father with failing to supervise a child, right? You'll see it all the time with crosswalks.
They'll put these rainbow crosswalks everywhere and someone will put some like tread marks in them or something. There were three young people, I don't know if they're teenagers, I think they were teenagers, and they were riding their electric scooters over this pride crosswalk. in Spokane, Washington. Put some tread marks on them, right? Skid marks. And they got charged with some felony, like destruction of government property or something like that.
A felony. There was a guy in Iowa who ripped down a Pride flag outside of some church and then went to a bar and lit it on fire and then threatened to burn down the bar. He was getting 15 years. Now, they'll say it was 15 years because he threatened to burn down the bar. Sure. Uh, but I guarantee you if he ripped down an American flag and burned it and then threatened to burn down the bar, he wouldn't have gotten 15 years.
That's just, that's my, that's my opinion on that.
But let's just, if you, the punishment for burning the pride or the American flag should be the same as we've been punishing people lately for hurting the pride flag.
Is that fair? Is that a fair standard? I think it's time we get our national symbols prioritized properly. So let's pivot to the Bible here. Well, first of all, let me just ask the question. What do you think?
Should we punish people who burn the American flag or no? It's time to think about For me, yesterday, I really deeply reconsidered my thought on this. And I've moved away from my libertarian stance. And I think it's okay for people to get together and say, you're not allowed to do that thing because that thing is bad. We used to have laws in this country about selling alcohol, drinking alcohol. We used to have laws in this country about adultery.
You can't commit adultery. We, as fellow citizens in a town, decided that adultery is bad and we're gonna ban it. You're not allowed to. And if you do, you're punished. We used to do that stuff. And I think we can do that here.
I think it's okay to say you're not allowed to do this thing. And then we figure out what those things are or aren't. That's my take. But I want to pivot to the Bible here. One of the other themes of all the dissenting views. was the symbolism of the flag.
There are a lot of symbols in Christianity. Now, I'm not a Catholic, so I know there's a lot of symbols in Catholicism. Aesthetically, I'm more attuned to, and theologically, I'm more attuned to the Puritan way. And the Puritans rejected all that stuff and went to just bare bones aesthetics as much as possible. No stained glass windows, no nothing. But they weren't against all symbols in their lives.
On their gravestones, there were often engraved a skull with wings. And this was to represent the fleetingness of life. They rarely had any paintings of themselves, but if they did, there was always a skull somewhere in the painting, on the desk or something. So they were very big on recognizing the reality of death, which by the way, we don't do in our country today. And I say the Puritans were against symbols. They weren't really, they were against symbols you could see.
Their language, though, was full of symbolism, as is the Bible, full of symbolism. The Webster's 1828 dictionary definition of symbol, the sign or representation of any moral thing, America, by the image or properties of natural things, this flag. But here's the example that the Webster's dictionary gave in 1828. They always gave biblical definitions. Thus, the lion is the symbol of courage. The lamb is the symbol of meekness or patience.
Symbols are of various kinds as types, enigmas, parables, fables, allegories, emblems, hieroglyphics. I do want to, the first symbol that I think of when I think of church is communion. Jesus told us to eat the bread and drink the juice. This is Matthew 26, 26. Now, as they were eating, Jesus took bread and after blessing it, broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, take, eat. This is my body.
And he took a cup and then he gave, given thanks. He gave it to them saying, drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. To go back to Webster's 1828, the second definition of symbol that Noah Webster gave was an emblem or representation of something else. Thus in the Eucharist, the bread and wine are called symbols of the body and blood of Christ. So why do we do this? Why do we do the communion?
Well, that's Luke 22, 19. And he took bread. And when he gave a thanks, he broke it and gave it to them saying, this is my body, which is given to you. Do this in remembrance of me. Symbols are good symbols. And how much we protect the symbol, I believe is a reflection of how much we truly value the ideas that the symbol represents.
If you're walking down the street and you see a flag of Uzbekistan, I wouldn't think anything of it because I don't value Uzbekistan or anything about Uzbekistan. But if you're walking down the street and you see the American flag, you value the flag, but you don't really value the flag. It's still cloth, just different color cloth. I probably should have picked another flag that was red, white, and blue. from some other country that's also red, white, and blue France or something. Same cloth, same colors, but the French flag doesn't mean anything to you when you see it, but the American flag, it does.
And how you respond to the symbol. is a representation of how you, what you believe in the thing it's representing. And if you value America, you'll protect the symbol, my belief. Would that not also be true of communion? If you value what Jesus actually did for you and your sins and your life and your soul, then would you not hold communion in the highest regard and highest honor and highest level of sacredness? As John Calvin said of communion, we are therefore bidden to take and eat the body, which was once for all offered for our salvation, in order that when we see ourselves made partakers in it, we may assuredly conclude that the power of his life -giving death will be efficacious in us.
" Efficacious means like effective. It will be successful in what it's supposed to do in us and for our souls. I would like to see in our country, a greater reverence for symbols, not in the sense of idolatry, like we worship the symbols, but the reverence for symbols being a reflection of our reverence for the actual important things that the symbols represent. So we're not going to worship symbols, but we're going to have a greater understanding and appreciation for the important things of life. And then when we do that, out of that will come a reverence and a desire to protect symbols of those things. Mike Slater dot locals dot com transcript commercial free on the website Mike Slater dot locals dot com.